tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post5604794952136603496..comments2024-01-21T14:29:38.613-08:00Comments on Dangerous Idea 2: Reply to Weekend FisherVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-80607270123153221602007-02-21T14:24:00.000-08:002007-02-21T14:24:00.000-08:00Quite true. What I take it you meant was the idea ...Quite true. What I take it you meant was the idea that the natural world, which includes the world of human action, is a closed physical system, apart from any miraculous activity God might be involved in. <BR/><BR/>There is an important and key difference between what I might call Christian quasi-naturalism (Van Till style functional integrity, etc.) and naturalism per se, and it is that for naturalism per se the physical is not only closed after creation but also the initial conditions are design-free, while for CQN (the position, I take it, that people like Weekend Fisher are trying to defend, as well as Christian materialists in the philosophy of mind like Nancey Murphy) at least the initial conditions are designed. Now there are a couple of different ways of looking at these initial conditions. We might think, on the one hand, that these not only were designed, but that they show evidence of design (and therefore accept some version of the fine-tuning argument) or we might say that while we believe them to have been designed, we might think that God did it in such a way as not to leave fingerprints that science can discover, and so we might accept the idea that even though we think those initial condition are there by design, it is just as reasonable to suppose that they are what they are as a result of, say, our happening to be in a universe that supports life because all of them really exist, and we happen to be in a life-permitting one and not a life-hostile one (big surprise there). People committed to CQN must believe that the universe as it began is the result of design, the question is whether this can be made evident to science or not. <BR/><BR/>Now it looks like there are some versions of the argument from reason that, if they work, require something more than just a designed beginning. For example, if our knowing necessary truths requires causal interaction with eternal realities, this is going to undermine the causal closure of the physical, since the physical realm is a temporal and not an eternal realm. So if that argument works, it's an argument against CQN as well as naturalism. But do all the arguments require this? Are any of the arguments from reason arguments against naturalism but not against Christian quasi-naturalism?Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-67001281265560628762007-02-21T08:33:00.000-08:002007-02-21T08:33:00.000-08:00"And the resurrection of Christ from the dead woul..."And the resurrection of Christ from the dead would be a natural result of God's initial creative act? What Christian believes that?"<BR/><BR/>Mr. Reppert,<BR/>I don't quite follow you. How does the self-sufficient, independence of the physical world logically preclude the possiblity of God performing a miracle? <BR/>Believing in the resurrection of Jesus does not require one to deny that the human mind is a result of natural evolutionary processes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-73678329702590451992007-02-20T16:56:00.000-08:002007-02-20T16:56:00.000-08:00Anon: If one believes that God created the world t...Anon: If one believes that God created the world to be completely self sufficient so that all phenomena in it are the result of natural processes then it is difficult to take the Dangerous Idea presented here as anything but a misunderstanding of God's creative activity. <BR/><BR/>VR: And the resurrection of Christ from the dead would be a natural result of God's initial creative act? What Christian believes that?Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-7005096438176252952007-02-20T14:14:00.000-08:002007-02-20T14:14:00.000-08:00"Dr. Reppert must first properly define the target..."Dr. Reppert must first properly define the target (naturalism) before anything more can be discussed."<BR/><BR/>Appears to me that he is also attacking some forms of Christianity here. Or maybe I should say those Christians who take the view that God created a world that produced sentient creatures though the mechanism of evolution.<BR/>If one believes that God created the world to be completely self sufficient so that all phenomena in it are the result of natural processes then it is difficult to take the Dangerous Idea presented here as anything but a misunderstanding of God's creative activity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-43179047051551055602007-02-20T12:02:00.000-08:002007-02-20T12:02:00.000-08:00Are you proposing a functionalist theory of mental...Are you proposing a functionalist theory of mental states? Because it looks to me as if some things can serve the function of mental states without actually being in those mental states. For example, my home computer running Fritz will massacre me every time in speed chess. There is something it is like to find a winning combination against Reppert, and while there are many chess players who have experienced what it is like to find a winning combination against Reppert in chess, there is nothing it is like for a computer to find a winning combination against Reppert. The function is there, the inner state is not.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-22617317457977383542007-02-20T10:17:00.000-08:002007-02-20T10:17:00.000-08:00WF, if I may. When you ask:"if you were trying to...WF, if I may. When you ask:<BR/><BR/><I>"if you were trying to show me logically that logic itself or reason itself falls apart in a <B>naturalistic</B> world, what would you say? What would be your opening move?"</I>, (my emphasis)<BR/><BR/>Dr. Reppert must first properly define the target (naturalism) before anything more can be discussed. He's not trying to convince you that the universe is purposeless, he's trying to define the term. <BR/><BR/>Since there seems to be a disconnect here, maybe _you_ can define the term "naturalism" instead. How can one answer your question if one doesn't know your definition, and you don't accept the one Dr. Reppert offered?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-283366361938516852007-02-20T09:45:00.000-08:002007-02-20T09:45:00.000-08:00VR: They are mechanistic in the sense that there i...VR: They are mechanistic in the sense that there is no purpose at the most basic level of analysis. <BR/><BR/>WF: Let's look at that more closely; sleeping dragons and all that. Once an organism has developed beyond a single cell -- heck, once an organism is even so much as a single cell -- then there are material structures (organs or organelles, depending on your level of analysis) that have a "purpose" or a function; like our heart muscles are very mechanistic but still have a "purpose" or function. Organic things work that way. <BR/><BR/>I suspect that brain function / thought / reason can be adequately explained as an advanced organic function. Where the heart supplies blood and nutrients to the organism, the brain supplies a model of the world to the organism, an evaluative framework. <BR/><BR/>Keep in mind I'm Christian, I'm not trying to annoy anyone's faith; I just suspect God is such an artist that He got these results even using such base materials. <BR/><BR/>Would you see a problem in positing our thoughts and ideas as part of a system that did have a "purpose" (at least at the same level that the heart has a purpose)? What objections would you raise against the brain having a purpose that are distinct from the heart having a purpose? <BR/><BR/>Take care & God blessWeekend Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-5822899137086669742007-02-20T09:18:00.000-08:002007-02-20T09:18:00.000-08:00No, but the point I wanted to stress is that you d...No, but the point I wanted to stress is that you do want to show that reason doesn't cause a problem for a naturalistic world view. You are saying, I take it, that if the world were as I described, there is no problem explaining the fact that reason existed. <BR/><BR/>The important thing I wanted to stress is that in order for the discussion to proceed we have to be clear on what physical causes are. They are mechanistic in the sense that there is no purpose at the most basic level of analysis. We cannot admit any kind of aboutness to a purely physical description, we cannot admit normativity, we cannot admit subjectivity of any kind. We have to be clear on what physical causes are. Do we agree on our definition of what we mean when we say that everything arose as the result of physical causes?Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-6904123809182502082007-02-18T22:12:00.000-08:002007-02-18T22:12:00.000-08:00Hi thereSo as to your question whether the natural...Hi there<BR/><BR/>So as to your question whether the naturalism I'm discussing meets your definitions, I'd say that I personally don't believe the in the existence of the hypothetical world you described in those points, and certainly don't believe we live in such a world. Given that, I'm not sure whether you're interested in pursuing what my actual objections are. <BR/><BR/>Here's my actual objection. Given the physical world as it exists and as we can observe it, I don't see why the hypothesis that it arose based on physical causes alone would lead to the conclusion that there's no reason to believe reason's validity. Further, I don't see why the hypothesis that our minds and thoughts can be understood in terms of biochemical processes should be doubted, or should cause any distress to a Christian if proved true. <BR/><BR/>Would you be interested in pursuing that, or is that beyond your areas of interest? <BR/><BR/>Take care & God blessWeekend Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425001168670801073noreply@blogger.com