tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post9137757271722624684..comments2024-01-21T14:29:38.613-08:00Comments on Dangerous Idea 2: Bulverism and the AFRVictor Repperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-1203281493305248872007-05-22T09:28:00.000-07:002007-05-22T09:28:00.000-07:00One big problem is going to be finding causal role...One big problem is going to be finding causal roles for emergent properties without violating the causal closure of the physical. There are different kinds of emergence--the kind of "emergence" that William Hasker in The Emergent Self thinks is required to resolve the relevant issues is a type of emergence that requires denying the causal closure of the physical.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-49030908353767130642007-05-18T09:55:00.000-07:002007-05-18T09:55:00.000-07:00Mr. Reppert. Is it not possible that at the materi...Mr. Reppert. Is it not possible that at the material level "reasons" and "causes" have no real distinction? One term that "soft core" determinists have used but I never see much anymore is called "emergence"--which in my mind socks the wind out of what I think are artifical distinctions over reason vs. cause, or intent, vs. non-intent at some loci in the mind.<BR/><BR/>What is your response to those who claim that CS Lewis simply ignored the phenomenon well-known to science called "emergence"---<BR/>Which I mentioned to someone who mocked that this was basically an uninstructive word that simply says "that's the way things are"?<BR/>To which I say, so what--life is like that sometimes. MUCH of it, in fact.<BR/><BR/>The argument of emgergence, THE prime answer to Lewis, goes like this:<BR/><BR/> Having cultural or physically limited choices does not mean I can't step outside certain bounds of culture, cannot know truth, cannot make reasonable decisions, etc. Having limited real choices does not mean I have none at all. Its just that they are contextually bound.<BR/>Conversely none of us can do anything we like on fiat or whim.<BR/><BR/>"Emergence" is well known in other aspects of life as a phenomenon either in the mind of creatures or physical characteristics of rocks, plants, H20, and other complicated combinations of material whose collective attributes could not have been predicted ahead of time but nonetheless show features that seem to defy deterministic behavior. In reality they either evolved or got compounded. Thus for example water has features that cannot be materially explained that defy all other liquids (expanding upon freezing rather than contracting, etc). There is no reason to think this feature or set of features would be missing from the evolution of the human mind. <BR/><BR/>I think the confusion here, which stuns me since the soft-core determinists have mentioned this for years, is that CS Lewis' claim that we are somehow our of necessity hide-bound as sock puppets and not masters of our own fate (IF the mind evolved physically over vast epochs of time and thus human induction is cast out by Darwinism or evolutionary explanations), is over the terms, and is absurd. Lewis said that our very thoughts and actions could not ultimately be trustworthy as seeing truth for truth if the mind evolved since we are metaphysically bound to materialistic action/reactions of chemicals in the brain, etc. However, the correct phrasing he missed is that while its true that our actions and perceptions are always limited by metaphysical conditions we had no part in (I have brown eyes, and not by my choice but my father's choice of wife, etc, and unless I want a life of crime I can't simply "choose" to have a Jaguar XJ6 in the driveway unless I have the cash or lease money), we make choices based on our limitations. <BR/><BR/>Free Will, or choosing to see a proposition as true/untrue dichotomy, is no more dependent on "induction" and "stepping outside the bounds of physical reality" any more than "choosing" to jump off a bridge violates the laws of gravity normally holding you to the rails. <BR/><BR/>Just because the human mind evolved and has physical explanations for all its aspects does not deny that within realistic bounds, the human mind holding certain propositions or notions or having choices is not contradicted by the fact that this "emergent" property of the mind is not well understood. A recent study says that even the lowly fruit fly has "choices" and non-deterministic behavior that cannot be reliably predicted but nonetheless no one says that Lewis had such simple creatures in mind when making claims about induction, choices, or stepping outside the bounds of physical preparedness whose loci is the brain, be it simple neurons of the fly or the vastly more complicated realm of human endeavor and social settings. The researchers who published this peer-reviewed report, which I've read, make no mention of doubts that something supernatural or mystical beyond Darwinian evolution is responsible for this emergent property, nor do they lay claim that flies are sock puppets in a simple Skinner Box act merely because the explanation for their non-deterministic behavior is physically based. (Though they did not use the term emergence, for full disclosure).<BR/><BR/>The fact that it is complicated and thus far "simply is" based on observation says nothing that bolsters the notion of "induction."<BR/><BR/>In short précis, if Emergence is true, then Lewis' notion on Induction is irrelevant, and is thusly annihilated as a logical response to the problem of human choices "stepping outside of naturalistic explanations of the "truth" of certain propositions.Wakefield Tolberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07214688786380814406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38436816.post-1036152976411662262007-05-09T17:39:00.000-07:002007-05-09T17:39:00.000-07:00Oops looks like I transferred this one earlier.Oops looks like I transferred this one earlier.Victor Repperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10962948073162156902noreply@blogger.com